I am now interested in this thread. Good post.
Jeff ,
all things being equal , base plane/horizontal , path , face and point of contact , then a flatter plane will have more loft on the face
You wrote-: “I am not talking about the tangential swing path of the club; I am talking about the rolling of the club face like acc# 3 in your lingo.”
Good - now we are getting somewhere.
I hope that you realize that in my theoretical model (which is primarily based on the tangential path of the clubhead, and therefore also the clubface, through impact) “things” work out 180 degrees diametrically opposite to your theoretical model (which is based on hand roll-over through impact).
Now, consider the “reality” of a high handicap golfer’s swing. I believe that their major problem relates to i) controlling the clubshaft (which determines the path of the clubhead) and also ii) controlling the clubhead (in terms of timing the club release phenomenon so that the clubhead can be in a straight-line relationship with the left arm at low point, which means that there is a small degree of forward shaft lean at impact if the ball is placed an inch-or-two behind low point). A more upright swing plane better solves these problems in terms of hitting the ball straight. By contrast, I think that the timing of left hand roll-over at impact (so that the flat left wrist/hand is vertical and level at low point) is a lesser problem. I agree that a flatter swing plane will allow a golfer to hit the ball straighter if a certain degree of hand rollover imperfection at impact exists.
Therefore, John’s assertion that a flatter clubshaft at impact will automatically/incontrovertibly result in a straighter ball flight is not necessarily true - especially if significant imperfections in clubhead path and/or significant imperfections of clubhead timing exist.
Jeff.
John,
You wrote-:
"If I can drop my swing plane 8 degrees to help me straighten out my shots and not give up any feel, I am all the wiser to do so.
I also think history has shown us that the best ball strikers have swung the club on much flatter swing planes than the majority of the “popular golfing opinion”.
If you read my reply to macs, then you will see that I believe that a flatter swingplane will actually make it more difficult to hit the ball straight if a poor golfer has i) a significant imperfection in clubshaft (and therefore clubhead path) control and/or ii) a significant imperfection in the timing of the club release phenomenon.
However, that doesn’t mean that I personally recommend a steeper swingplane. I actually promote a flatter swingplane in my golf website’s review papers - because I believe that it is biomechanically easier to consistently control the clubshaft (and therefore clubhead path) with a shallower swingplane.
You also wrote-: “If you think Moe swung the club with his arms and not his body you are WAY off course… Was Moe lying to us when he said “I swing the club with my chest and my legs” I have him talking about that on my film that I took of him in 1987. Macs and Arnie have seen it.”
That’s interesting. In the 7-part U-tube video series of Moe Norman giving a clinic (which is publically available), he stated that he doesn’t use the body to power the swing. He laughed and stated that he is not a “dog wagging a tail” swinger. He stated that he uses his right arm to power the swing. He also specifically stated that he “hits into his legs” and he indicated that it allows him to have a braced left side to stabilise his swing at impact. He also stated that the body’s main purpose is stability and balance, and that he wants to keep the body still so that it can be a source of stability/balance.
I have studied his swing repeatedly, and I personally think that has the characteristics of a right arm hitter, and not a swinger who uses the pivot-drive action to blast the left arm towards impact.
However, I am open-minded about this issue, and if you want to share your Moe Norman material with me, I would be very appreciative. I am fascinated by Moe Norman’s swing, and I wouldn’t refuse any opportunity to better understand his swing mechanics/biomechanics.
You also wrote-: “To fully understand a technique, you need to be able to execute it. I say FULLY understand. Homer Kelley and other observation based instructors were or are limited by the scope of their experience. Why did Homer completely drop the ball on ground pressures? Why did he believe that a stationary head is an essential when it clearly is not? That a flat left wrist is an alignment, or something someone could possibly achieve as if it was mutually exclusive?
Why did he omit a frozen right arm through the impact interval as a component variation or option? Why? I suspect because he never experienced these very real sensations within his own body. Other than his observations, much was left on the table as subjective opinion… and not very scientific. Homer was at best a 15 handicap. How could he really know?”
I agree that imperfect golfers (like Homer Kelley and me) can make judgmental errors because we cannot perfectly execute a golf swing in all its variable permutations. However, superb golfers often manifest significant judgmental errors because they cannot understand how different physical limitations affect the the fluid performance of different swing styles.
You also wrote-: “All great ball strikers use the pivot as the primary source of power for the golf swing… that one is a given… anyone taking issue with that is likely a higher handicapper who is trying to makes sense of the golf swing without having any idea of how to properly strike a golf ball.”
I disagree. I think that TGM-hitters primarily power the swing via the release of PA#1, and not via a pivot-action. I classify Lee Trevino and Ken Perry as TGM-hitters. I think that left-arm swingers primarily use the pivot action as their primary source of power, and I classify Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, Jack Nicklaus, and Tiger Woods as left-arm swingers.
I am still hoping that you will define what’s a 5th power accumulator.
Jeff.
Bombgolf22
I believe that Lee Trevino was a TGM-hitter, and that he therefore powered his golf swing via the release of PA#1 (active right arm straightening action) and not via a pivot-drive action.
I believe that left arm swingers usually power their golf swing via a pivot-drive action, which must start from the very beginning of the downswing (using a well-defined kinetic sequencing motion).
I described the process in excruciating detail in my review paper on “How to Power the Golf Swing”.
perfectgolfswingreview.net/power.htm
You can read my review paper if you have any interest in my opinions.
Jeff.
Jeff
I think I am at the limit of my resources but its good that we agree the flatter plane will be helpful with club face rolling imperfections. I wish you enroll or somehow John gives you access to his first Module. It costs a 100 bucks. That is exactly the point. Right in the first module we learn the only power source we want to use is a powerful rolling of the club (firing of the hands) and try to limit the tangential pull by pinning our arms hard onto the body at the same time lagging our pivot by squeezing the ground which creates the axis tilt. We do this to our body’s limit at which time the pivot snaps (John’s anology of the closing door and then the whole frame moves allowing no more (or limits depending on your body conditioning) roll of the club face. And then comesthe fifth accumulator. This following is not from John but I believe this is the one of the three possible reactions to the strong rotatory move and the only one biomechanically sound. The options being;
a- You just stall and wrap the arms around you - Not good.
b- Allow your feet to rotate big time - again not good (I am still guilty of this)
c- Rip the club up high - that is the one.
d- Allow you spine to twist and break (Kidding because the body thinks afety first)
I know its hard to get your head around it at the beggining but trust me after 10 months of 1000 of repetitions I see no other way. To summarize again in John’s swing the predominant source of force is ROLLING and that is helped by the FLAT PLANE; The inside path is a given because your right angle is held tightly.
I dont have access to youtube right now but I will post one of Moe’s video which shows tons of double horizontal hinging tomorrow. I hope this clears the air.
After reading:
perfectgolfswingreview.net/power.htm
A lot of questions (coming from a very a different school of swing mechanics I learned by), first and most importantly how do you compare your view regarding PP#3 (in both hitting and swinging) with Hogan’s view that the active right index finger (along with the thumb) is (are) the largest cause of an OTT move and are totally unnessecary?
Bom… you are knocking of heaven’s door realizing this… good for you!
Jeffman…
If you believe the golf swing is driven by the arms… and this is what good players do… it makes no sense for me to continue this discussion about why we need the 5th accumulator for a pivot driven (around the corner) hitter…
If you actually believe that the torso has no role post impact other than to just coast it’s way passively to a finish… we are trying to communicate from two different solar systems using a language that died years ago on Planet Zethron.
I really can’t make any argument that could possibly convince you.
I work so hard on my own pivot rotation, speed and strength post impact, it’s just about the only thing I work on when drilling.
Both Macs and Arnie witnessed me recently drilling on this… out on the deck and how fiercely I do this.
But according to you… I could just as well lay in bed, close my eyes and imagine I am relaxing and stalling my pivot post impact and I would be just as good if not an even better ball striker than I am…
Just like Hogan and Trevino did… and Moe with his floppy arm swing… hmmmm…
I really wish you were correct… I like sleeping in!
What would be the shortest complete answer to the question “What is the fifth power accumulator?”?
If you look at the photos below and take note of the arms and the clubface- WHO would you choose to have to hit the fairway or the green if you’re life depended on it? (Can’t choose Lag- his left/right pic was an example 
)
That premise of it is that the swing isn’t over at impact–
we need to continue that club with speed for a variety of reasons- I won’t explain HOW we do it- but it is a very overlooked part of the swing and rarely spoken about even though history shows it is there in the swing DNA of pretty much all the great ball strikers
more pics- which swing looks like it has slowed and is not displaying any more force to the shot?
Lecouerdevie
You wrote-: “A lot of questions (coming from a very a different school of swing mechanics I learned by), first and most importantly how do you compare your view regarding PP#3 (in both hitting and swinging) with Hogan’s view that the active right index finger (along with the thumb) is (are) the largest cause of an OTT move and are totally unnessecary?”
Before I answer your question, what’s your source for that Hogan assertion? I would first like to confirm that Hogan really made that statement.
Jeff.
John,
You wrote-: “If you believe the golf swing is driven by the arms… and this is what good players do… it makes no sense for me to continue this discussion about why we need the 5th accumulator for a pivot driven (around the corner) hitter…”
I am not stating that a golfer should only power the swing with the arms.
Homer Kelley divided golf swings into two types - swinging and hitting.
A TGM-swinger uses the pivot-drive action to release PA#4 (release the left arm) at the end of the early downswing. PA#2 is then released passively by a centrifugal action in the mid-downswing, followed by the passive release of PA#3 in the late downswing. That’s a triple barrel swing action - 4:2:3. Some swingers, such as Jamie Sadlowski, do not use PA#3, and they therefore have a double barrel swing action - 4:2.
A TGM-hitter usually uses a triple barrel swing action - 1:2:3. That is a right arm-driven action (and not a pivot-driven action). If the hitter uses an assertive right shoulder thrust action at the start of the downswing to release PA#4 before actively releasing PA#1, then that would represent a four-barrel hitter’s action (4:1:2/3).
Although Homer Kelley didn’t describe any other alternatives, I increasingly believe that there is third way, which I call “swinging-hitting”. I have never described my “swinging-hitting” theory on my website, because I am still mentally incubating many ideas. From my perspective, “swinging-hitting” differs from “pure” TGM-hitting in certain important ways.
A “swinger-hitter” uses a takeaway swivel action and a release swivel action (which is not used by a TGM hitter). That allows the back of the flat left wrist/hand to roll-onto the inclined plane in the backswing, and roll-off the inclined plane in the mid-downswing.
A “swinger-hitter” uses both drag loading and drive loading in the same swing - in a sequential manner. He first starts the downswing with drag loading when he releases PA#4 via a pivot-drive action, and he then switches to drive-loading in the mid-downswing when he activates PA#1. That means that he is drive-loading the club into impact, and beyond impact. That requires an active pivot action post-impact (as can be seen in hitters like Lee Trevino and Moe Norman).
I am interested in your swing ideas because I think that we may actually agree on many points. In my “swinging-hitting” model, the golfer must actively pivot beyond impact - mainly to control the clubshaft from a directional perspective. However, the pivot-action only powers the swing in my “swinging-hitting” model in the early downswing, and not the late downswing, or post-impact.
Jeff.
youtube.com/watch?v=Z2FBoHmq_h8&
Jeff
this is the video I wanted to post of Moe.At 3:55 and 4:20 you can see his release which to me is a full roll. do you still think that he is a TGM type hitter.
Macs,
I agree that Moe Norman uses a horizontal hinging action.
I don’t think that he is a TGM style hitter. However, I suspect that he is still using his right arm to power the swing during the mid-late downswing. I cannot fathom how he could be classified as a TGM swinger, who uses a pivot-drive action to blast the left arm into orbit (release PA#4). I don’t see any pivot-drive action at the start of the downswing, and it “appears” that he is mainly using his arms in an active downplane swing action.
Go to moenorman.org
Check this 13 minute video at the bottom of the page.
“Moe Norman On the Driving Range Hitting Golf Balls 1992”
Note how he keeps both arms straight at address on the TSP, and he swings his arms on that same plane. Note how he i) rotates his upper body very assertively post-impact and ii) how he allows his arms to extend very high at the finish. I believe that those two combined motions allows him to use a horizontal hinging action. A TGM hitter, like Lee Trevino, stays low on the hand plane post-impact and he uses an angled hinging action.
Note how Moe Norman doesn’t use a rotary pelvic action in the early-mid downswing - as usually occurs in a TGM swinger. He simply drives his pelvis left-laterally into a braced, but very bent left knee, in the early-mid downswing.
I wish that I really understood Moe Norman’s swing mechanics/biomechanics. He has an extremely unusual, but highly effective, swing style.
Jeff.
Wabisabi
Excellent photo of Moe during the followthrough. It looks like his horizontal hinging action could be partly due to the fact that he bends the left wrist during the followthrough.
Another interesting fact is that he has a square pelvis at impact. I never see that phenomenon in a swinger, who uses a pivot-drive action to initiate the downswing. Swingers usually have an open pelvis by impact - like Ben Hogan.
Jeff.
Does Moe have a club in that picture?
I suspect that the club wasn’t captured because of the slow shutter speed.
Or, maybe it disappeared in that “puff of dirt” - as part of Moe’s magic trick action! 
Jeff.