I think the point I am making is that I am rarely impressed with the ballstriking tee to green in today’s players.
The scoring is better today, but not because of the ball striking. Perfect putting surfaces allow guys to run the table unlike any point in history up to this point. Since this forum in general is focused a bit more on the ball striking aspect of the game, hence Advanced Ball Striking, I don’t think it is unreasonable acknowledge that this is not the Advanced Putting Forum…
I certainly have my beliefs about why many great strikers have struggled on the greens. I don’t believe they had their equipment set up correctly, and also an oversight on some technical aspects… but while putting is a huge part of the game, it still is not all of the game.
I believe the modern gear is inferior and that the club designers are completely missing the point. The marketing department is fare more sophisticated. Clubs are being designed by hackers… not top players as they used to. David Graham had certain things in mind when he was grinding head designs for MacGregor. Tony Penna and others… these guys were players who understood things beyond velocity readouts and wind tunnel data graphs.
The modern players are playing inferior gear, and developing their swings around this stuff and it shows.
Every time is turn on the TV, I hear comparisons of Rory… such as he is the greatest striker to come along since Greg Norman or Sam Snead etc… and I disagree. I see him missing way too many shots… drives… short irons and so on. Then who does he have to go up against? Tiger is obviously not the imposing figure he once was. Guys that have not even won yet are not afraid of him anymore. Phil? His amazing 64 at Pebble saw him missing the greens badly with both a 9 iron and a wedge coming down the stretch. The ball striking is not that great.
I would argue that if the greens were not so pristine… you would see better ball striking on Sunday. The better putters can really separate themselves from the field over the course of 72 holes on great greens. On the contrary, the better ball strikers could separate themselves from the field if there was a penalty for missing the fairway, and if the greens were smaller which would reward better shotmaking.
Nicklaus and Watson were not heralded necessarily as the premier strikers of their era… but if you look back in context, they were a whole lot better than what is going on now these days.
I’m not bashing Rory or putting in general… just speaking from what I observe having played on tour myself at the end of the persimmon age, vs what I see in today’s game. Rory or anyone else shooting 17 under in the US Open and that being held as one of the great feats of the game is silly. The guys were holding the greens from the rough and making birdies? … in a US Open? Ok.
You’ve gone on repeatedly about putting, and specifically, Rory’s putting, over the last few days. If you don’t want to talk about putting then you shouldn’t talk about putting. It is what it is, and even the greatest ball strikers of all time had putters in their bags, some were even very good at it. Jackie Burke said he never saw Hogan miss a putt inside 8 feet when it mattered. There’d be no Ben Hogan if there was no Ben Hogan’s putter.
As far as Phil or anyone else missing greens with 9 irons or wedges coming down the stretch, we have TV coverage on steroids, internet, highlight reels, and talking heads who talk about talking heads talking about golf. It’s analyzed ad nauseam. If aliens came down and somehow put our coverage from today in place from 1940 to 1970, I’m pretty sure we’d see some greens missed with wedges and 9 irons, even by the greats. To say that that didn’t happen is to really play blind. I’ve played a lot of golf with a lot of the guys out there today, and they’re very good at golf still. They don’t miss a lot of shots, and certainly not on the scale that you’d lead people to believe- and I do know what quality ball striking is and what it looks like. Reading your renditions of the modern game, you’d swear that nobody can play anymore. It’s just not true. I agree with a lot of your views, but when you take such broad swipes at entire generations, it makes me want to point out that it’s just not that simple. Phil Mickelson is a really good ball striker, and I know that’s probably hard to believe because he has a manky swing and he misses greens, but he’s a great ball striker in the way that Seve was a great ball striker. In my mind there’s a phenomenal joy in that kind of golf and I have total admiration for it. It’s not war, it’s a game to be played.
I think you might be confusing quality ball striking with what the ball does after it’s struck. The modern ball itself doesn’t allow the shots from the past to be played anymore- that’s not the fault of the striker, that’s the fault of the ball. I play a fair bit of golf both with the modern gear/ball, and with the old gear/ball, and they’re not as different as you’d think in a big picture sense. It’s not even the driver that’s the issue- like I was pointing out a few pages back, you’ll miss more fairways with the same shots purely based on distance travelled, not directional launch angle. It’s actually from 6/7 iron down where you really notice it, because the modern ball jumps and it’s gone before you know it- it seems to have an extra gear in the air. The old ball stays with you a good bit longer and doesn’t act freaky when it leaves. It could well explain some of Phil’s wedge and 9 iron issues- that and the fact that he was probably hitting them from 160 or something like that. Wedge, aka, punch 6 iron.
I hear what you’re saying, but it sure seems like we see an inordinate amount of really long putts made these days compared to what you would see in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s… maybe into the 90’s. Subjective evidence is all I have but damn it sure seems I see a lot of bombs go in these days!
I played with a local pro a few days ago who has won a bunch of sectional PGA events over the years. He’s in his 50’s as I am. On hole 3 we both hit shots that started 20 yards left into a 195 yard par 3 with a 25 mph wind blowing left to right. Both of us ended up well left of the pin. I commented that the new ball sure doesn’t seem to curve much in the wind and he said he thought it was the added separation speed at impact that made it less vulnerable to cross-winds. Both of us agreed that the old balata acted quite differently.
No objective basis for it but I see it so much these days… shots that a strong cross-wind simply leaves alone. Does that make the game any easier? I don’t know. I just can’t believe how hard it is for me to accept the fact that the wind that I feel blowing hard from r-to-l or l-to-r has so little affect on the end result.
The gear today is set up very different and the golf swings reflect that both in swing plane through impact and at transition. It’s very easy to see with any kind of trained eye.
The modern players don’t hit the ball as straight with the newer gear and matching swings. Pretty easy to see that also. Just turn on the TV and see all the horrible shots being hit by today’s megastars.
The modern courses are longer and the modern players are hitting it farther. So they build new courses for them to play on. New stadiums so to speak. Mostly flat, big greens, few trees, complex putting surfaces, much better conditioning. But are these courses going to breed better players? No.
I don’t think teeing the ball up high, swinging as hard as you can, and just figuring 50% of the drives will land in the fairway as some kind of random probability is what good ball striking is all about. Feel free to disagree of course. But I believe that an elevated level of ball striking will see a player shape their drive into the correct side of the fairway, with missed fairways generally being those shots that just ran out a bit, but still miss on the correct side. Flat fairways take away the element of hugging the ball into the fairway as you would see on side hill fairway slopes. The skills required to do this are a bit more advanced. Smaller greens require better iron play… especially if one is going to hit a lot of greens.
The modern gear is easier to hit, just as it’s easier to keep balance on a tricycle than a bicycle. But the bicycle will out perform the tricycle on an obstacle course… like the older classic tracks offered up and still do.
Robbo, in my opinion, this actually makes it harder because the ball floats. This is why the guys hit it sideways, particularly with the short irons, the ball is floating when instinctively you expect it to spin. And it’s nothing to do with the quality of the strike- LCDV talked about this stuff a long time ago, and I have practical, comparative experience with it now. It may be easier with a driver in a cross wind(but I’d still argue it isn’t), but when you have to hit ‘a shot’, with the 6/7 iron down as I mentioned, It’s actually a more difficult game now because you can’t control the ball. You just have to throw it up in the air like a tree casting it’s seeds, and hope they land in the right place to take root. There was some smart assed comment about Rory and the wind there a few pages back, but nobody can really play in the wind like players used to be able to do. Rory learned the game playing championships on wind swept links course, he didn’t fall out of the sky and pick up a frying pan.
As far as putts go, there may well be more holed, but the brain dead highlight reel assemblers tend to show about 80% putts in their coverage, so there’s a question of what’s on the plate for dinner, not just what’s the only thing to eat. There’s also been a massive increase in focus on putting, putting technique, putting R&D, it’s a game in itself now- this plays into how guys are better at it, not just green condition. And if you look at what was considered ‘good technique’ back in the day, it was a very unreliable action. Yes, that was affected by green speeds, but I’d say it was more to do with the prevailing understanding of how the action should actually be performed. Jack was probably the first guy to take the hand flick out of it, and he did it with the so so greens. And he holed TONNES of putts through both eras. Attitudes have changed too, as well as society and culture throughout the western world. Fear isn’t nearly as prevalent in life, and it’s certainly not in golf. It used to be a nervy, fearful, cautious game, just listen to the old commentators, they have you thinking there’s mortal danger in play All of that stuff feeds into putting and the game, imo.
Good ball strikers don’t have trouble controlling the ball. No doubt the modern ball flies straighter with lower spin rates. This is proven beyond a discussion. I can’t buy the argument that the modern ball is harder to play short irons with. You can’t curve it all that much with short irons anyway.
I could curve the balatas a bit, even with a wedge, but just to spin it one way or the other toward the pin once it hit the green. The modern ball is not causing Dustin Johnson to miss greens with wedges and 9 irons. It’s just simply a poor golf swing that is doing it. I play the modern ball because that is all that is available, and I can’t think of the last time I have missed a green with a wedge or even a 9 iron. Maybe 6 months ago? If I ever do, it’s because I caught it a bit heavy or thin…not because I came OTT pulled it long and left by a 100 feet.
The balata’s help the good players… hurt the bad players.
If you have a good golf swing, you’ll hit it straight with balata or the modern ball… but you lose the workability of the ball when you need it.
If you have a bad swing, you will struggle with both balls… but you would struggle a lot more with balata.
When I left the game, balatas where still uno. I was / am horrified as to what i have to play with now. Plastic crap. These balls make my 79 yr old dad hit it straight. I now have to feel a 30 yard hook to hit a 10 yard draw. These balls make golf boring, and feel awful. Just rocks. They have no desirable flight from the tee, they just wobble out there. If someone tells me todays ball is an advancement, i know im talking to a chopper.
Here is a look at Nicklaus playing Watson at Pebble in 1995. Jack is still playing persimmon. Watson is playing a small headed metal wood back when they still played about the same as wood.
I wasn’t able to record the whole match due to technical difficulties but here are the first 12 holes with most all the tee to green shots that they showed.
Jack is 55 here, well past his prime, but certainly long enough to play Pebble and shoots 69 beating Watson who is 10 years younger. They might have missed one or two greens between the two of them only when coming into postage stamps and the misses are just off the fringe, not in the next zip code. They are not spraying the ball all over the course. This is a clinic on how proper golf should be played.
There is wind… they used the US Open Sunday pin spots. The rough is crazy high… compare this match to what went on at the Congressional Classic last year.
This vid is only about 15 minutes long. Textbook shot making. This is why guys like Miller and Faldo, Chamblee etc are rolling their eyes at the modern game.
Lag, you take single shots and paint the entire generation with them, it’s ridiculous. The way you deliver it, you’d swear they all constantly miss the greens with short iron shots. It happens now, and it happened then. Good ball strikers DO have trouble controlling the modern ball, just by you saying they don’t doesn’t mean they don’t. And for the sake friendship, I’m going to assume that that wasn’t a stab at me
The ball doesn’t spin, so the slightest error in take off direction is amplified. It goes where it takes off, and it doesn’t come back. In many ways, you have to be more accurate with it. The balata was easier to use because you could send it out and know it was coming back. It’s why I’d argue Robbo’s point that the new ball is easier to use in the wind- they’re not, because you can’t trust it will come back from your starting direction. It may sail through the wind and not come back at all. And if you try to just hit it straight and ignore the wind, and get it slightly wrong, then it’s gone- and that’s not just with the driver. Nobody is arguing that Dustin Johson doesn’t have a modern and unreliable golf swing, why do you insist on bringing it back to such mundane basics of the argument? If you want to discuss the p3 to p4 journey(as you call it), again, you wont get an argument from me. Nor will you get an argument about the equipment. You seem to miss the fact that you go on about how bad the equipment is, and how hard it is to play good golf with it, yet you don’t give credit to the modern players for how they manage to be as good as they are with it.
The reality is the modern ball is harder to use than the old ball- so the players are to possibly be even more admired for what they do with it. Again, you say it yourself, the balata helps good players. If they made that a standard ball, you wouldn’t see so many bad short iron shots.
This is going around in circles, and I’m not going to keep saying that I agree with a lot of your points- there’s a reason this is the only golf forum I go to on the internet, and it’s not because I think you’re full of shit. The clip comparing generations should be accompanied by Sonny and Cher’s ‘I’ve got you, babe’. I haven’t watched it yet… is it?
. The balata was easier to use because you could send it out and know it was coming back.
I stopped reading after that line. My dad played off 21 with balatas, 14 with rocks. His balata slice never came back.
On no planet can u convince me, that these rocks are tougher to hit straight than the the balatas of my day. I dont have a chronic problem with swing path and face rotation, so balatas or rocks start on my intended line.
All i get now when i attempt to shape a shot, is a ball that attempts to curve, gets to its apex of flight, and simply falls like its been shot. These balls today are for players who cant control ther spin rates. For players not in command of their golf ball. For players that want to swing with ALL their might and who cares where it goes, as long as its LONG right.
When i was just starting this game, i use to make it a mission, to see the Shark hit one drive every summer. I did that for over 10 years. I would make my way to a hole i knew he would rip a driver from. Stay waiting for hours. To anyone who has ever witnessed the Shark in his hey day, you will understand why the wait. Ive seen tiger when he first came out. I watched him win in Melb before his scandle broke. I saw him in the pres cup at royal melb last year. He’s good, no doubt, but no in the same hemisphere when it comes to the sheer strike and penetration the Shark had in his prime. Its unsurpassed in my limited bias view.
My best friend caddies on the pga tour. We grew up together, I was best man at his wedding, he at mine. Each year he comes home, we chat about the tour, and how good the players are. Each year its the same. Perfect fairways, perfect greens, perfect this perfect that. He use to watch the Shark with me. He is not impressed with what they do out there today. Nobody hits it pure these days, nobody.
Steve
You probably should’ve kept reading, you’re comment might have reflected something I claimed instead of something you made up. Congrats to your dad, but I’m talking about better payers, this is ‘The Current PGA tour’ thread. And FYI, his slice DID come back, that’s why it sliced- it came back from it’s start path, the modern ball doesn’t. Feel free to re-read my post.
Sure I am taking wide swipes at the modern game… because all the guys on tour are playing the same frying pans, juiced up golf balls and looking at 7500 yard golf courses with little penalty for errant tee shots. I don’t blame any of the modern players for learning a style of swing and game to suit the new formula for success… bomb and gouge our whatever you want to call it. But golf is not just that kind of game. What happens when they are playing golf outside the PGA Tour bubble?
What would happen if you put them on a tight course with undulating fairways… with small greens and high rough and less than perfect greens? I say they don’t play nearly as well as the greats from the past. And I believe that kind of golf is not only more difficult to master, but more enjoyable both the watch and to play particularly for the better players. The Brent Snedecker experiment says something. So did the Canadian Open last year. I have no doubt that a top player from the persimmon era could have easily won the Canadian Open playing persimmon and balata against any of the new stuff.
Bradley and I watched the President’s Cup a couple years back in person at Harding Park. It was a joke. These are supposed to be the best players in the world? It was shocking to see what was going on out there.
The persimmons, the blade irons, the balatas, high rough, small greens, sidehill lies… all that makes you better. It asks more of you… and it’s natural for the brain to adapt over time with hard work to get the job done. So what comes out the other side of this process? Much better golfers.
I think it is much easier to adapt to the modern game coming from the classic gear than the other way around. It would be like chess players figuring out how to play checkers. A checkers player trying to learn chess and then having to go up against a quality chess player is going to get their head handed to them by the queen… literally. I don’t see golf as being any different.
If you like the modern game… good for you. Go play it… watch it … buy the lightweight stuff, hit it a mile. Work on a lot of long left to right downhill putts, and celebrate that Rory is 10 shots better than Hogan ever was in a US Open. Red pill or blue pill. Which one is for you?
Seems appropriate to repost this frightening comparison. Is Tiger’s aggregate score really 159 strokes better than Jack’s, or is something else going on???
I’m going to disagree on these points because your description is of the greens I have to tackle every time I play my home course…stimping at about 4.5 - 5.0 and severely canted from back to front.
No fear? Perhaps not fear, but standing over any putt that isn’t exactly below or above the hole and wondering how much it’ll break and when the shag will take hold and really make the ball turn doesn’t instill any confidence in making the putt. While the shagginess of the greens mitigates the fear of running it 6 feet by…just getting aggressive doesn’t mean you can throw darts. The reality is you end up hitting rainbow putts hoping both line and speed are perfect to find the bottom of the cup. The furriness of the greens is hardly uniform and a golfer wonders whether or not the expectations of break on this putt will match what was witnessed on previous holes. The answer is…maybe.
I’m sorry, but that’s deflating. However, when I get the speed at other courses that are manicured to a tee…I’m an excellent putter with a great imagination.
I won’t even touch on the type and variety of approach/pitch/chip shots you have to utilize to hit into greens with very lush/uneven collars and wildly varying dryness from back of the green to the front!
[quote=“crr”]
Seems appropriate to repost this frightening comparison. Is Tiger’s aggregate score really 159 strokes better than Jack’s, or is something else going on???
crr - That truly frightening comparison hits right to the heart!
And now he got rid of his slice because the ball stays straight on it’s start path, which is what I’m saying. The modern ball helps him because it stays on it’s start path and doesn’t really deviate- so he hits more shots on the fairway because that’s where it takes off. This affects good players generally negatively, because shots are required to curve back into a fade or a draw when needed- you could trust the balata to come back when sent out, whereas you can’t trust the modern ball in the same way. Your Dad’s shots ‘came back’ in this context, by going right after starting straight- that’s the ‘coming back’ of a slice. Balls don’t ‘come back’ a second time in the same shot, that would be a fade draw or a draw fade, and not even Hogan could hit those shots. The modern ball is harder to use because you are essentially narrowing your fairway- like how Langer, Hogan etc. talked about doubling the size of your fairway by shaping the shot, now you have to basically start it down the middle and keep it there- If there’s no wind, then that’s easy enough to groove, but when the wind gets up, it becomes a real guessing game.
All of that stuff feeds into putting and the game, imo.
