Coriolis effect

Why are we fooled?

Why is it hard to make a ball fly where we want it to fly using a crooked bevelled stick to whack the ball?

Is it at least partly due to the Coriolis effect confusing our perception?

Did Ben Hogan minimize disorientation due to the Corolis effect by minimizing rotation of his head during his down swing?

The following link may provide clues, but the math and language beats me to a senseless pulp. :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

I was just wondering about this yesterday while doing some reading on CP and CF…interesting stuff.


Thanks, tee, for clearing that up. I knew it was Earth’s fault all along. Now I have something to blame! :slight_smile: But I have been thinking lately, (something I try not to do too much) about what Hogan said that if you knew where to look, you’d know the secret…though personally I don’t think he had one secret, but an accumulation and evolution of a swing that for him just kicked butt all day, everyday.

Anyway, what if Hogan was talking about from the golfer’s view–if you knew where to look. For me, the 430 line was such an epiphany. I knew about the slot but had no clue how to access it. When Lag taught me the 430 line and bowing to it in my setup, literally a region of planet Earth-- ground and grass–opened up to me from my birdseye view. The more I work on Mod. 2 the better I see the 430 line and it allows me to slow down on the free ride and then rip it into the bag. Sorry to go off topic…

Classic Paul C :laughing:

It seems in a way, we are the Earth spinning our swing, and so, yeah, maybe it was the Earth’s fault all along, even for the good flights if we manage to avoid getting confused within our own spin. And yes, though I am early in the modules it looks to me they go a looooong way to minimize confusion and cut to essential stuff that matters most imho.

I think you’re on to something 1tee. If you look at that video on the link you provided ( the ball dropping on a spinning disc), it is similar to what Lag has described happens to the upper left arm, and hands during Hogan’s downswing. I believe he pointed out that this action can act as a buffer, or shock absorber, against over acceleration. (if my memory serves me correctly :smiley: )

I guess what his arms/hands do is a variation of the video. To represent his hands from a birds’s(eagle) eye view, his hands(black ball in video) would start from the perimeter, and move towards the center.

This is kinda what Phil Ritson used to say…" the hands play keep away" or something like that. Meaning, I think, while the core is turning toward the target, try to keep the hands from getting to the ball as long as possible.

I haven’t gotten a full grasp of this one yet, but it seems very interesting. Does anyone want to take a stab at a layman’s version of how or why it applies? Is it about our interpretation of the ball, and how we perceive it and then move? Or is it about how we relate to the club? Or both? Good stuff, 1T…

My initial post about the Coriolis effect came from noticing that I have trouble successfully performing physical activity, including the golf swing, requiring balance and timing if my head is turning during the activity. I suspect this has been true to a lesser extent when I was young and it seems to have accelerated as I have aged. I tried to get a handle on this by looking into the Coriolis effect. It appears the Coriolis effect is or may be connected with this disorientation as mentioned in Wikipedia at and in the link at the bottom of my original post. I wondered if good players like Ben Hogan avoided disorientation by limiting the turning of their heads during the downswing. The flip side is how golfers such as David Duval and Annika Sorenstam performed so well while their heads were turning during their downswings. Further, David’s career was eventually affected by disorientation too, at least for a time.

Because I am not trained to delve into the possibilities and have not learned how to think about this in a way that I can communicate, I posted hoping to learn more from other folks who may have already or will freely peer into the issue and post about it either with objective information or thought provoking questions and let it go where it will. Thanks.

It may have more to do with moving one of your bodies major balance systems: the inner ear’s , during an activity that requires balance… :slight_smile: Just a thought.

My superficial understanding is that the inner ear and its health do play a major role, as you suggest dthiele, especially with respect to head movement during the downswing. Same goes for our vision and our internal sense of relative position of various parts of our body to each other, and to the external environment. Vision seems it may have both constructive and disruptive roles though I have not catalogued much about that beyond John’s reminder that having our eyes above rather than nearer the impact zone is a major challenge in learning a good golf swing. I’d like to know more about how we can use our vision with our imagination to maximize performance or to minimize disorientation. For example, it seems that using the 4:30 line uses our visual imagination to help us ignore false perception to help us successfully navigate a useful path with our club to the ball despite the potentially disorienting Coriolis effect from “spinning” around our pivot.

On a different tack, I guess that whatever the experience level of the relevant systems that orient us, if any one or group of system members has a change in health or experience there is potential for disorientation at least until health is restored or there is a compensating adaptation due to retraining or innate capacity. This also connects with the need to be practical about our tendencies varying, say day to day, and adapting our game to make the most of our current tendency, or to minimize the bad effects, whether or not we have any clue at all what is causing the tendency.

I got busy watching the BCS Bowl Battle.

My comments were made after simply watching the video on the link provided by 1tee, showing the relative movements of two objects.

This sparked my bird brain to notice the RELATIVE( “everything’s relative man”) movements of the core vs the arms, and hands in a good swing like Hogan’s. It was just the visual impression, and it may have nothing to do with the science of the Coriolis effect.

It seems like another of those paradoxical things of Hogan…as the core is turning and the hands drop, he limits their forward travel(relative to the core, or naval) as much as possible , thus initially limiting the effect of the pivot’s accelerating force on the hands, but ultimately increasing, or maximizing it. One of Lag’s ABS concepts …“limit hand travel.” Don’t some players(those with a fast transition)move the hands backwards( relative to the core) at the beginning of the downswing , and strive to have them drop straight down begining the downswing?

As an example, the opposite would be to use no pivot and advance the hands relative to the core creating that armsy flailing looking swing that we seek to avoid.

I hope that made sense. It is a visual brain teaser. And it may be totally missing the real point of the thread…that being the Coriolis effect. That’s a mega-teaser.

The Ducks were talented and well coached, and they played great defense. But War Eagle!
eagle 2.jpg

Interesting topic Teebox…balance, timing, visual distortions, spatial distance awareness, and others- are present in all motor activities…that’s why we have red pills…it helps keep us on an even keel :laughing:

When you mentioned about head movement while in motion the first thing coming to mind was pitcher Fernando Valenzuela- probably the antithesis of a steady head while in motion!

As in golf, drumming also has timing, posture, and spatial distance awareness components.

For instance, when setting up a drum kit spine posture and positioning of the striking heads are real important. Ideally, one wants to be sitting erect (Hogan’s feeling of walking erect down the fairway) with the striking heads close enough so as to avoid unnessary reaching as this can throw one’s timing off. If I play a kit set up differently, there will be a timing issue related to how things are set up spatially, and I would have to be aware of that difference…much like being used to swinging standard gear and then suddenly switching to flat…there will be some timing and position issues that must be sorted out- and some of that sorting out happens naturally and some by design.

With the spine more erect one is free to float around the kit. Now if my posture changes while playing…meaning I lean forward toward the striking surface in an aggressive manner, or even lean backwards profoundly, that can change one’s timing simply because there’s less space, or more space as the case may be, for the same time interval. If I am sitting erect on the throne and then find myself getting lazy and leaning too far forward while moving around the set…not only is timing an issue but then so is freedom of movement which also affects timing in a multiplying manner. :slight_smile:

All these posts are heading in good directions imho. Thanks for jumping into it.

Well then…here’s another example of arcs and perspectives.

If a ball is hit “hot” and on a direct string towards a center fielder, it is difficult if not impossible, to determine the arc of flight unless the center fielder makes a little “sideway” move with the body and eyes. They will then be able to determine the approximate parabolic height and make their run up to the ball descending in front of them…or start moving backward, whatever the case may be. If they don’t make the little sideway move relative to the flight, the parabolic flight will simply look like a straight line.

Of course rats don’t have to worry about perspectives. We sit so low to the ground that everything looks “up” to us. :laughing:

As I’ve said before , you’re a true nut RR.

But you are right…judging how to catch a baseball is dependent on determing the apex(!) of the flight. And the low ones require that slightly “off” perspective.

That’s a great example of how we can “see” different stuff, simply by slightly changing our perspective of the same thing…or using a different set of eyes ( rat eyes and bird eyes)…or looking at the stuff nearby…like you pointed out with Hogan’s shadow.

Good stuff, 1T, I like the ideas it opens up. The whole idea of relating to the ball with our eyes is a tricky one because ultimately we can’t actually see the specific point on the ball that we hit, so it’s always going to be general awareness that we use our eyes for- both for where we are in space and the general location of the ball. Plus, it’s not moving, so that makes this game a lot easier than we realize. Though I remember Feherty talking about the greens at some tournament being so fast that they had to take into account the rotation of the earth… man, that guy is funny. So maybe it is moving… but then we’d be moving too, I suppose.
Our eyes play a big role in balance- it’s easy to stand on one leg, but it gets trickier when you do it with your eyes closed.
One of the real problems with poorer golfers is the hand/eye link. I’ve taped a fair few bad swings and what’s interesting is that they’re all very similar in their tendency to swing on the ‘eye plane’. Add to that the fact that they tend to be structurally top heavy at set up, and it’s messy. I think you almost have to let go of your eyes as a force in the golf swing since anything good happens below their radar. At least to conceptually understand that the eyes aren’t a hub of any sort in the motion. These are things better players understand without knowing they understand them. I talked a while ago about developing awareness at the base of your spine/top of your back- that really should be as high as you’re thinking. I sometimes try to imagine I have eyes in sternum and try to ‘look’ at the ball from there. The reality is that we’re top heavy, so it’s tough not to give into working from up there. A lot of it has to do with where you feel power in your swing- we’ll go to that when we’re playing for the most part because at the very bottom of it all, we have to move the ball.
I don’t know if I’m going off track with this, but I see it as related. I don’t think the eyes are actively involved with coordinating the club to the ball, and I mean that in a specific, to the exact spot sort of way. I think they are involved for sure in our general awareness and understanding of where the ball is where we are in relation to it. So as a result, I think we have some leeway in terms of some motion. I’m sure some people are more skilled or capable in terms of that spacial type awareness, so that’s got to help. How would you see quality of vision playing a part in this? How would that alter the Coriolis Effect or impact it? I’ve known a few really good golfers who couldn’t see for crap, one guy in particular who’s still the best putter I’ve ever known. I sometimes think that the lack of details helped him on the greens, things appeared simpler maybe? I’m sure the same applied for striking, there was just a general area to swing through. Now that I think if this, it’s the funniest thing, but as dusk sets and I’m chipping around the last green I play, I find the quality of the lie matters less and less. I can’t see all the crap or rough or whatever around the ball, I can only see the whiteness of it. I always tend to hit crisper chips in that situation. It’s so easy to get hung up on the tiniest details of a lie, when really it’s that big a deal. I remember getting a lot from that ‘night chipping’ realization.
I’ve been a bit worn out on posting lately, but I always find your ideas very interesting.

I really like the drum set up analogy, it’s almost as if it takes the eyes out of the equation because you know where you are and where the drums are in space. There’s a lot in that in terms of establishing some stuff in the set up, in terms of forming a relationship with the ball, physically and mentally, that will allow and encourage the required motions…
Good stuff…

Good words Bom…like you said before…now we’re sucking diesel!

Almost like your words about dusk chipping…I’m sure many on this board have done some moonlight practicing. That is the most fun ever. Just you and a partial vision of a white orb settled into some darkness that only hours ago was green grass with definition. I do that often, and just love the aloneness of the process and feeling the harmony between mind, body and ball. It’s great practice time. :slight_smile:


Thanks for the drum lesson!
I have some things to work on. Oddly enough I set up my kit left handed mainly because I like to kick with my left foot, so I can practice in the car as my left foot is free on long drives. I basically learned to play while driving between tour events.
I also carry a set of sticks in my car, and use the steering wheel to do rudiments in traffic. By training on odd metered music, it makes everything else seem much easier. I have always felt the golf swing is executed in odd time, not 4 x 4.
Snead talked about that also, the swing being a waltz. I feel 5/4. If you really commit to PV5, you have that extra beat.

Oops… this should be ‘… awareness at the base of your neck/top of your back…’

Tough to beat! As the great Isaac Brock said, ‘I’m never lonesome when I’m by myself’… Actually, RR, you might like him, he/they(Modest Mouse) have a song called ‘I came as a Rat’… might not be your style, though… :confused: He’s one of my favourite song writers/musicians, I’d even give him the ‘genius’ tag.