Changes Schmanges

nothing new here or groundbreaking…but since i’ve been here it has really made me sensitive to all the non sense on the golf channel…can’t
they bring back big 3 golf? now that was a show.

i had the golf channel on in the background last nite and they had some kind of of “news from the range” thing going on at the phoenix open
sponsored by big trash. all the conversation was about what player is changing what. so and so changing clubs, so and so changing coaches.
and this is not players that are in slumps they are talking about, these are guys who are coming off their best years ever. it was beyond rediculous.
one analyst kept harping that if they are not changing or “improving” they are falling behind. really? i would think the time that it takes to get used
to new things would be better spent improving simple things, like trying to figure out how to shoot 68 ever single time i tee it up. last time
i checked 68 averaged out over the year puts you pretty high up on the money list. if i was a pga pro i would go practice all week somewhere else
and show up thursday morning, get away from all the hoopla. 2 refreshing things on the telecast, aaron olberhoser playing with whatever clubs he
likes because he has no club deal (although they would not say what he was playing…) and gary player’s son doing a swing critique on a top player trying
to improve his swing (snedecker), he simply said “he needs to work on getting his upper body moving through the ball batter, his upper body is stopping at impact!” guess the apple does not fall far from that tree…

i’ve been in sales for quite some time and corporate america is no different, every year the executive team decides you need the latest and greatest selling theory shoved down your throat by some person who got tired of selling or was never very good at it and in the end you move away from what really made you
succesful in the first place. in a bit of irony, one of these training programs is actually plastered all over several pga pros shirts…

Yeah it’s really sad… Newer is not better… it’s just new.

Someone needs to go out there and whoop all these guys with persimmons… that would shut them up!

My thoughts exactly…
I can’t watch golf anymore, at least not any more than a few minutes. The Masters has been turned into a complete joke. The Masters??? Playing their drives with Grapefruit-sized 460cc hollow Titanium shells??? I can’t waste my time…

Here’s the way I see it. If Bob Jones, Byron Nelson, Ben Hogan or Sam Snead, Arnold Palmer, Nicklaus, Player etc… wanted to lengthen the shaft on their drivers, they could have. But this would have brought about 2 difficulties.

1.) The longer shaft would have made it more difficult to keep the ball straight. ( Still pretty applicable today )
2.) The longer shaft would have made it more difficult to hit the ball on the sweet spot on the standard-size club head. This is no longer applicable. The huge grapefruit sized Titanium shell has, IMHO, a larger area which will produce a solid strike. But, for the average player, the larger club-head makes it possible to at least hit the ball with a 44 or 45 inch shaft. And that’s why countless amateurs around the world think they are “driving” the golf ball. And, because the rock hard pellet can be hit at higher speeds (because of the longer graphite shaft) the thin Titanium wall on the face of the driver is “giving” a little like the strings on a tennis racket.

It’s just not Golf anymore…

I will start watching golf again when a pro has the kahunas to play a real Driver, and not the “Handicap Drivers” that most are playing. Yes, notice that I did not say the word “Technology”? Titanium was discovered in 1791 and manufactured in it’s pure form in 1810. So Titanium is not some newly discovered metal. The first graphite shafts were introduced in 1973 but did not gain widespread acceptance until the mid 1990’s. (Although the quality of the shafts has improved, I’m sure)
Well, do you call stretching the club head into some type of (as Lag likes to call them) Frying Pan sized behemoth…Technology??? I don’t. It’s Handicapology…Plain and simple.

The Manufacturers are marketing these clubs by using the word “Technology” to hide the truth… Handicapology…

All wars are won first on the infowar front…And using the word Technology only reinforces the brainwashing…

The new clubs are Handicap clubs, and in the hands of the top players in the world, it is making a joke of the professional game…

What really makes me scratch my head is this…The average duffer thinks nothing about watching Derrick Jeter use an implement that is almost identical to the one used by Ty Cobb to hit a baseball with.
It’s made of the same material, it has the same diameter…etc… But, Golf… Hey, it’s not a frying pan…it’s…it’s… Technology !!!

Good lord… just as in golf I’m SURE the baseball today is much hotter than it was in Cobb’s day! The ball has f’d up golf as much as the club “advancements”.

I dis-like the way the game has headed just as much as anyone in this forum, but I’m sorry, i’m not going to stop watching it becasuse it’s a bunch of inferior athletes who’s skills are being masked by 460cc drivers. These guys are doing amazing stuff with gear that the governing bodies have allowed to be used.

Lag and others are doing their level best in getting a grass-roots movement in motion with the persimmon/blade events that have been held in Vegas for the last several years (see Anyone who wants to make a statement about the state of the game and the travesty that the equipment changes have allowed needs to man up and SHOW UP! Enough with all this TALK about how the game has gone to crap and by God I’m done with it until it changes. There’s an amateur division as well as a professional division (which is now paying $10k for first). You wanna get some attention to the state of the game… get a BIG field to show up for the 2012 event. Check that… get a HUGE field to show up!!

What more do all the complainers want done to try and reverse the trend? Seriously … what??? Pretty big equipment forum on here talking about the “good stuff”… persimmons, great forged irons, but when it comes to participating in a flagship event related to actually USING the stuff it’s like “Oh I can’t fly to Vegas and spend a few hunnys on a tournament”… blah, blah, blah.

PUT UP or SHUT UP! This thing ain’t gonna change any other way! Complaining is easy… taking action is hard.

Sorry Lag… got a little carried away, probably cause I know you won’t. :slight_smile:


There are a lot of ways of looking at the issues, but the path of least resistance is for a new organization to rise up. Pick the version of the game you like.

To me, the modern game is completely silly and ridiculous. I have no interest in it on any level. The move toward 8000 yard courses is completely illogical. Slows down the game and makes the round longer, environmentally unfriendly, negates the classic historic courses, widens the fairways, removes driving precision. The golf ball needed to accommodate the movement doesn’t spin enough to shape shots properly for the better players. The gear needed is too light and removes a player’s feel from their hands, hence the wild driving of today’s tour. I could go on for hours and I often do.

But if you want to learn to swing a golf club that is going to give you the best results for an optimal balance of accuracy and distance, you are best to learn to master blades and persimmon. No doubt that all of the games greatest players throughout golf’s history were or would be proficient with traditional gear.

On a personal level, I actually enjoy hitting long irons. I have no interest in hitting a hybrid. I like the feel of flushing a long iron shot. I like the feeling of making a birdie on a par 4 I hit a persimmon driver and a 2 iron into the green 10 feet from the hole. It’s more rewarding of an experience… and ultimately I am out there to pursue a quality experience that will create something memorable.

First of all I’d just like to say that if the above Robbo is the same Robbo who has been posting in other forums around the web…then, yes, you have done an excellent job of promoting the persimmon game. I applaud your efforts and respect your comments immensely.

Yes, I agree that the ball has also been juiced up in baseball, but I was making a point about the club.

Lag had asked others for their thoughts or ideas, and I am simply trying to offer my angle…

I vote on the state of the game by not watching the tournaments, if enough did the same, believe me, they would notice.
Do we vote on GMO foods that are causing cancer and sterilization of lab tested animals by continuing to buy GMO’s ??? I don’t…

I believe that the word “technology” is covering up the fact that the pros are playing “handicap” clubs to sell to the masses.
Let’s start using the term “handicap driver” to refer to these frying pan objects, it’s closer to the truth than…technology…
When enough start to catch on to the brainwashing, they are going to let go of the handicap objects. What real man wants to ski the bunny slope???

I don’t mind admitting that I don’t have the resources to fly across the country to play in a tournament, as important as I feel it is… (If I did, I would already have flown out for a week of private lessons with Lag !!!)

I’m not meaning to sound complaining, I’m just trying to offer my input, my ideas.

Once again, kudos to Robbo, Lag, Twomasters and all others who support the true game of skill called golf


Lag and others are doing their level best in getting a grass-roots movement in motion with the persimmon/blade events that have been held in Vegas for the last several years (see Anyone who wants to make a statement about the state of the game and the travesty that the equipment changes have allowed needs to man up and SHOW UP! Enough with all this TALK about how the game has gone to crap and by God I’m done with it until it changes. There’s an amateur division as well as a professional division (which is now paying $10k for first). You wanna get some attention to the state of the game… get a BIG field to show up for the 2012 event. Check that… get a HUGE field to show up!!

i’d like to “put up” and play as amatuer, but with 2 young kids involved in about 7 sports between them and a wife
that likes to travel the country to run marathons it makes it tough. i know, cry me a river…we are all busy.

but that being said, i would like to do it, probably won’t work out for me this year, but who knows what next year would bring. i’d love to see 3,4 or 5 events a year, so i could have some scheduling options but i also know that’s a tall order.

in the mean time i’ll just continue to complain about the golf channel…i still watch it, so i can’t hate it that much :wink:


I really used to love watching golf… especially the tournament formerly known as “The Masters”. I doubt I will even waste my time watching it this year. I know this is a hard concept for many to understand, but the better players who played in the persimmon age will understand when I talk about how the course was designed to be played from certain places in the fairway, and why the changes in the ball and the clubs have also significantly altered the trajectory of shots coming into the greens. Trying to trick it out with rough and lightening fast greens was not the intention of Jones and MacKenzie. Those guys would be so furious at what they have done to this masterpiece of a golf course.

But what can we do? A lot.

Start talking about it. Go out on some of these other internet forums and strike up a debate. Get people thinking about this stuff. For those on Facebook, message former tour players and get their thoughts. Spread it around. Stir up some animosity and debate. Get people thinking. Be respectful and diplomatic but also rile them up, get them emotional. Make comparisons between the modern game and the traditional game on youtube. Show guys coming into #10 at Augusta with a 3 iron or 4 wood compared to guys today hitting wedge or even 8 iron in. Show the difference between how the ball behaves when it hits the green due to variances in spin rate and trajectory.

Play persimmon… and if you play narrower courses in proper persimmon length, feel confident you can beat guys who are using the modern gear. I’ll teach you how to swing it… and you’ll have a blast whipping guys who spray the ball into the garbage half the time. Play a tournament and celebrate for every guy you beat with the classic stuff.

I played in US Open qualifying a couple years back and didn’t score well because the greens go so hard I couldn’t stop the ball on a green with the modern ball coming off classic V grooves. But I still beat half the field. Half the guys out there couldn’t beat me. Pretty amazing really.

I still prefer the V grooves for most courses. I really don’t want to be spinning the ball backwards off the greens and into the lake like the kid did last week in San Diego. If he had my wedge he would have won the event.

Walk into a pro shop and ask what the course record is. Then ask what the persimmon record is. That’s a conversation starter. Start making a distinction everywhere you play.

When someone compliments you on how well you hit persimmon, show them the difference in the lie angle. It’s pretty shocking especially if you have flattened one out.

After reading Chamblee’s article, I would not be surprised at all if he hasn’t come across Bradley’s or my posts on the issues as it seems eerily familiar.

Every bit counts.

@ Nutmeg - that may be the same robbo that’s posted on other sites… regardless I appreciate your compliment.

@ kirkschwart - time to get some scene-control at the house!! If Momma can travel for marathons and the kids are doing the 7 sport thing it sounds like Daddy needs some Daddy-time! :slight_smile: (just kidding - sounds like you have your hands full).

Bottom line imo is that the state of the game as far as equipment goes will only change thru the type of effort that Lag/TRGA are putting forth, and even then it may be too late. Unfortunately I’ve been blabbing about the P/B event enough that there may be a few mini-tour/ex-mini-tour players from Dallas finding their way to Vegas this year so I’m probably SOL as far as having a decent finish in this year’s event but so be it. :slight_smile: Amazing what a little prize money can. Certainly I understand the financial and time committment it takes to participate in an event like this so don’t take my initial “rant” too seriously (I’m hoping I can pull the trip off myself as a matter of fact, it’s not a definite), but in the end I don’t know that there is any other good way to make a dent in the whole issue of equipment changes other than the TRGA getting a head of steam.

Yes we can boycott the Golf Channel, but I’m not sure how that will help other than making one feel better. Besides - they still carry some great Shell matches! :wink:


needle on the record is skipping again… :confused:

But I just don’t see why both games can’t exist. If there is a National Hickory Open, there can be a Persimmon and Blades National Open. The Golf Channel can stay what it is… and there could be the Traditional Golf channel… just as VH1 Classic has a show to promote the Spandex rock bands of the 1980’s. That Something Show.

Proper golf was just too great of a game, and there are just too many great tracks that need to be played with correctly with complimentary gear to just sweep under the carpet and label it old school, archaic or irrelevant. Was it just as fun with the old stuff?

I love Arnie’s little smirk at the end of this clip. …

Great idea, but novices beware! I got censored on a forum for being a little too sarcastic about the frying pan drivers, even though I was in a persimmon thread in that forum !!! I had obviously upset a forum moderator who just kept attacking my logical arguments with completely ridiculous comments…

I learned some big lessons on that one… If you’re not careful, you can “become” what you fight.

I believe my 8/7/11 post on “The Sand Trap” was a vast improvement. It was within a thread (now close to 700 posts) called 20 Handicappers hitting 300 yard drives…

I thought it did a pretty good job of inserting “the truth” into the discussion. Funny, I waited a week for someone to reply or comment on my post (#577) but nobody did. I can only hope that it generated a lot of thought though…

Check it out here: … ost_636578

Oh, And another lesson learned… Never pm someone about the real powers that are running things in the world…
You may make them think they are about to become Soylent Green !!! :astonished:

Nutmeg !!! :laughing:

I’m all confused now, which is really not hard to do. There is and Persimmon Tour. Are these both the same thing or affiliated? I hope they are the same as it appears there may be an event in Ga in Feb. 2013

Just saw this thread, in the first post the Phoenix Open gets referred to as sponsored by “big trash”… Is that Waste Management or TaylorMade? And as far as these fascist corporate bootlicking internets forums go if you’re not BANNED after about 2.2 posts you’re obviously not trying hard enough. One of the reasons I keep coming back here is its one of the few sites that hasn’t booted my IP address… yet… Its very kind considering how many hundreds of times I’ve totally jacked and nuked threads on here. That’s big considering I’ve even gotten the boot from the Architectural Digest site.

i was referring to waste management, i was just regarding the fact that they happen to be a very large company that happens to
deal with garbage. it was not meant to be offensive, i promise :wink:

back when i was a runner i got banned from a few sites because my thought was that modern technologically advanced running shoes caused 90% of all
injuries…so you can see why i like abs so much.

i still preach my version of running truths to my wifes running group (minimal shoe, better form, higher miles, less speed work) but none of them
listen. they’re too busy going to see knee specialists, massage therapists, chiropractors and the like…people think golf is expensive???

No I like the “big trash” tag, I like it a lot. Good motto would be WM - It’s Legal Now That We’re Public… As far as the running goes I believe every word for sure but I got into golf because it was the only sport that didn’t involve running whatsoever. I got timed running the bases in freshman baseball with a sundial. I tried running forties in gym class and the teacher told me ‘I hope you get good grades’ instead of telling me my time. These legs were meant for walking and bashing toes on table legs and bedposts only.

Yeah man, Born to Run changed everything (the book, not the Springsteen tune). After reading that, I got into running barefoot or with really minimal shoes. You run with good form ‘or else!’ Changed my feet, ankles, knees, hips, and back all for the better. Padded up heels and arch supports are for suckers! Like cavity back irons for your feet…

Anyone who hasn’t read this book, I highly recommend it. Not just for runners. … 0307266303

i never read born to run but always meant too, and need too…i did alot of barefoot running on a football field to work on form. all of my enlightenment
came from injuries and getting sold junk at running stores. my last 18 months of serious running i did all of my miles in racing flats
including my last marathon. i look nothing like an elite runner in that i weigh 190ish but i had no injuries during that time. ironically i bought
most of the minimal shoes for $10-20 bucks online from running stores who could not sell them…if you
could draw a timeline between dumbed down running shoes and dumbed down golf clubs, they would look very similar. don’t get me started on goo.

i don’t snow ski anymore but apparently they have skiis that do all the turning for you…

Looks like an interesting book Newman, gonna order it and read. How long since you read it and what have you seen happen for you ?

It’s been a couple years since I read it. What I got out of it was a heightened awareness of what was going on in a running stride, and also found real enjoyment in running that I’d never experienced before. New attitudes, new sensations, new confidence in the capabilities and resilience of the human body. It’s pretty inspirational.
I could go on about a lot of stuff, but to tie it back in to ‘changes schmanges’, there’s the idea in there that maybe trusting “experts” in the lab over actual athletes isn’t always the best idea. There’s theory and there’s reality, and they don’t always overlap. Sure, there are improvements and advancements over time, but the claims need to be investigated and tested. Like it was stated earlier, just because something is ‘technology’ doesn’t mean it’s better. The golf example would be, lighter=faster, faster=farther, farther=better, et voila, lighter=better! I think we’re all hip to the fact that that argument breaks down once you start actually playing golf and need to feel a club head and, I don’t know, maybe hit it where you aim… To take an example from the shoe thing, the theory was that the human foot is poorly designed, and by padding the heel and supporting the arch, the foot would be stabilized and able to land heel first and roll forward, thus allowing for longer strides = faster running. Well, it turns out that the bottoms of your feet are sensitive for a reason, so you’re automatically hyper aware of balance and alignment, and not jamming your feet into the ground! And the arch thing… did someone mention Architectural Digest? Any “arch” gets it strength from the weight on top, that’s how the structure works. How do you weaken an arch? Push up from underneath. The idea that a bump in your shoe is supposed to be ‘arch support’ is comically backwards. What also happens is that over time, your foot is essentially being held in place, like it’s in a cast, kept from functioning properly, and naturally it grows weak from lack of use. There’s also the issue of the heel being raised so the foot doesn’t sit flat, also messing up the natural order of things. You know how frying pans are ‘swing cancer’, well, the modern running shoe is ‘stride cancer’. And Nike is making big bucks selling you shoes for your supposedly broken feet, which had nothing wrong with them in the first place.
Not so different form hacker scientists designing hacker clubs for hacker swing problems to make sure they’ll always stay a hacker.