I think what Richie is saying is: if you have a club set at 58*, soled flush on the ground, and then you add one inch to it, the toe will be up in the air. You would have to hold the club more upright to set it flush on the ground. The club would be effectively 59* with the longer shaft and it would have to be bent flatter to compensate for the need to hold it more upright. Conversely, if you have a club set at 58*, soled flush on the ground, and then you cut an inch off of it, the heel will be up in the air. You would have to hold the club flatter to set it flush to the ground. The club would effectively be 57* with the shorter shaft and would have to be be bent more upright to compensate.
Right, to make the hand height the same between the longer club and shorter club. BUT, if you were to lenghten the shorter club without flattening it, it would play as if it was more upright…
You have to have your lie angle set up correctly for the club’s length. That is just a given. If you make a club longer you have to flatten it. All quality iron sets are put together this way.
This was about Hogan’s clubs and that chart. Hogan would not play clubs where the toe or heel was digging through impact. They had loft and lie machines back in the 50’s. This isn’t The Flintstones here. These guys knew what they were doing.
Whether Hogan added or subtracted length, he would adjust the lie angles accordingly. You don’t just add length to a club and do nothing.
And I think Richie’s point was that playing a set of shorter clubs at Hogan’s lie angles would be effectively flatter than playing a set of longer clubs at the same lie angles, ie: a 38 inch 2 iron at 56* lie angle is effectively 2* flatter than a 40 inch 2 iron at 56* lie angle. A 40 inch 2 iron would have to be set at 54* to have the same effective lie.
Right, so that even though the lie angles don’t appear to be all that flat, they play quite a bit flatter than “standard”, whatever “standard” you might choose to compare them to. The lie angles didn’t need to be crazy flat because the clubs were shorter.
Exactly.
The only thing I am still curious about is the swingweight. I really believe that Hogan had a lot of backweight in those clubs.
What we know is from those who swung the clubs they felt very heavy and extremely stiff. We also know that both Jody Vasquez and the USGA are reporting fairly light swingweights. IIRC, I think Vasquez had the swingweights at D-1 to D-2.
Now, obviously that’s different than the C7-C9 swingweights the USGA have. But, I have found that not only is swingweight a faulty and incomplete measurement, but the actual scales tend to have too much of a discrepancy for my tastes as well. I’ve personally brought the same club to different clubmakers with different scales and get fairly different readings. I don’t blame the manufacturer as much as I blame the swingweight concept.
Okay…
We also know that a big problem with the swingweight concept is that you can add more weight to the butt end and the swingweight will actually go down and the club can actually feel heavier because the static weight goes up.
Furthermore, we know from shaft bend profile studies that the stiffer the butt section of the shaft, the shaft will feel stiff and boardy and the stiff the butt section, the shaft will play very stiff as the ball will be difficult to ‘turn over’ and tougher to ‘keep its trajectory.’
Usually stiffer butt section shafts are designed for golfers with an ‘aggressive’ startdown move. Hogan was fairly aggressive and generated a lot of clubhead speed. Hogan also reportedly had strong hands, something that would also fit a golfer who prefers the stiffer butt section shafts.
Backweight can help stiffen the shaft.
I know that today they make backweights that can be as heavy as 100 grams. That’s some serious weight to be adding and maybe Hogan did the same as well. If you added 100 grams of static weight thru a backweight, you would certainly feel that extra weight added.
The only other thing I could think, provided the measurements are accurate and the stories are accurate is maybe Hogan had a special shaft designed where it was super-duper butt stiff with an inordinate amount of the weight located in the butt section.
3JACK
My definition of flat is different than today’s standard. If you setup and the sole of the club is toe down, that’s flat, if toe up, it’s upright… Looking at Hogan’s vids and pics, the toe never sticks up in the air… Who cares what the numbers are… He knew what he was doing while people sit and guess… I’d would like to know Hogan’s specs when he was hooking the ball… From experience, I have a 55 degree 5 iron at 37.50, is that flat or my standard lie? I can curve either way by thought, and not have to compensate by having to holding off the release or turning the clubhead over for a draw… That’s when you know you’re clubs are working with you… I can feel the shot I need to hit whether it be a cut or draw… I feel like I’m one with the golf course now… Tee shot requires a fade, visualize and execute, same with a right to left shot when needed… Maybe my aim changes, but it’s automatic now… I can’t guarantee, but I would think that Ben made a big equipment change when he mastered the fade in one day… It’s because I’ve experienced it myself… My miss was a high nasty hook, now my miss is a cut to the right edge of the green… Holy Hell, the wind doesn’t even matter anymore, just have to adjust trajectory, that’s just by thought rather than changing mechanics… Your mind controls your body is what I’m getting at, but you need your gear set up right for you… I love John and Bradley’s teachings, but saying “flat” might steer people away… YOUR standard is what matters… Good lord, now I want to start a club making business… 
Good info Richie
I thought it would be interesting to add this talk from a former PGA player/teacher that posts on another website about Hogan’s gear…He was a protege of Tommy Bolt who Hogan helped and liked
Interesting about what he says about the short irons, which seems inconsistent with the USGA stat sheet. The right grip build up could explain some of the backweight also for lighter swingweight
“Hogan had long arms…his irons were so darned flat and flared open that hitting it left was almost impossible and grips that were built up in the right hand. When you look over that previous sentence things get a lot less complicated…BTW His long irons were flat but nowhere near the flatness of his short irons.…a graduated flatness from long to short…and this made it very hard to pull these exaggerated short irons…My own irons are set up the same way…Bolt taught me that trick…the flaring is also important as that makes it easy to aim a hair left and hold on slightly and just get a 3-5 foot fade…
The logic of the lie angles was to get the shaft coming at you the same way as address was…it always made sense to me but you should hear golf companies and club repair guys laugh at that notion…lol… The reason he liked super stiff shafts is he didn’t want to feel any shaft drooping or at least as little as possible…he also didn’t want to feel any bending in the shaft under his grip…and he was the leader in developing a larger butt diameter in the shaft. Basically his methods were the difference between a Nascar machine and a retail street model car”
There is an auction at:
https://thegolfauction.com/Ben_Hogan_s_Personal_Model_Reg__1622_Personal_Used-LOT112596.aspx
The says that this is " BEN HOGAN’S PERSONAL MODEL REG. 1622 PERSONAL USED COMPLETE 1-9 IRON SET".
The auction closes on Sunday April 9th, 2023. At the time I post this (Friday April 7th, 2023), the bid price is: $7,321.
Before the auction ends, go there to see pictures of the set. I saved copies of the pictures on my laptop.
The auction has these club spec’s:
This is the text of the auction following. Thought this would be of interest to all of us ABS folks!
https://thegolfauction.com/Ben_Hogan_s_Personal_Model_Reg__1622_Personal_Used-LOT112596.aspx
BEN HOGAN’S PERSONAL MODEL REG. 1622 PERSONAL USED COMPLETE 1-9 IRON SET
When a call comes in from Fort Worth, Texas you make sure to answer it. That call led to this. Remarkably residing in this lot is Ben Hogan’s very own endlessly significant full set of 9 irons, starting with Hogan’s 1-iron! This represents one of the only sets in existence that were once swung by the man known for having best swing of them all - and that was no secret. ‘The Hawk’ visibly tinkered with this set that he used prior to breaking away from MacGregor in 1953 and as early as perhaps 1948 when the set was first produced. Based off of the specific design, these are likely on the earlier end of that timeline, pre-1950. It comes with a welcomed Texas-based line of provenance that began after Ben Hogan’s handoff to his good friend Dennis Lavender, an individual that carries much weight in the industry. Ben Hogan’s sweat equity was invested in these irons. Lead tape, strike marks (photo #6) on the hosel and shaving either side of the ‘Ben Hogan’ (p. #2) on the backside of the head is present upon examination. Signs of usage include wear on the face in addition to aforementioned unique customizations of the 1-9 irons set in this lot. As the old adage goes - these are tools, not jewels. There is no serial number on the hosel of these, common of Ben Hogan’s personal Reg. 1622 models.
“I have no reason to doubt they belonged to Hogan, but I do think someone else played them after he did. My current thinking is Denny Lavender was given two sets that Hogan used to create prototypes, this one and the Jimmy Powell set. They may or may not have been copied by the craftsmen at MacGregor to make tournament clubs for him. That’s unknowable. The USGA’s found 1 iron 1622 is nearly identical to this example, but it appears to have polished chrome on the weight bar, not satin chrome like yours (this example). The shafts appear original. Ben Hogan definitely wanted to lower the center of gravity as evidenced by the lead weight being added to that location on the clubheads. This set is a wonderful discovery! I haven’t been this excited in years!” - Ben Hogan authoritative expert Jeff Martin proclaimed.
The origin story that began with Ben Hogan’s own bag, to friend and confidant Dennis Lavender’s possession before he put them on display at Cedar Crest’s newly built clubhouse where he was head professional. After being encased at Cedar Crest golf club for a handful of years, the set was acquired by C.R. Shipley. Select irons display additional wear from over 70 years of storage, please reference accompanying lot photos for this detailing. Shipley’s grandson Stephen Farnham consigned these in hopes of appreciation and preservation of the Hogan legacy for many years to come. The Golf Auction would be happy to supply additional photos of Ben Hogan’s personal 9 irons ranging from 35 3/4" - 39" upon request. A signed letter of provenance from C.R. Shipley’s grandson Stephen Farnham comes with this lot.