A Key Image

Public Forum—Concepts in Advanced Ball Striking
61

bom,

i don’t think you’re interpreting newton’s third law of motion correctly. it’s true that every action produces an equal and opposite reaction. but the words action and reaction are referring to forces, not accelerations. if i hold up a golf ball and drop it, the mutual gravitation force exerted on the golf ball and the earth is the same. however, the golf ball’s acceleration towards the earth is much, much greater than the earth’s acceleration towards the golf ball, since the golf ball is much, much less massive than the earth. remember, F = ma. the F is the same for both the golf ball and the earth, but since the m’s are very different, so are the a’s.

when a golf club collides with a golf ball, forces are generated due to the impact. these impact forces are very complicated and are generally greater when the relative velocities of the objects are greater. so, again the impact forces exerted on the golf club is the same as the impact forces exerted on the golf ball (just in opposite directions). however, this does not mean that the accelerations due to these impact forces are the same, since the masses are different.

cp,

i had the same thought about zeno’s arrow paradox upon reading bom’s reply. if i may, though, i’d like to make a subtle but important point about your statement that deceleration is the effect of the reaction.

if the golf club is moving at a constant velocity (i.e. zero acceleration), then i agree with you that it must decelerate (i.e. slow down) due to the impact forces. however, if the golf club is accelerating upon impact, this need not be the case. the impact forces may just lessen the acceleration. deceleration is not the same thing as decreasing acceleration. deceleration means slowing down. an object can continue to accelerate (i.e. continue to speed up) even if its acceleration becomes less.

if you have a fast sports car that does 0 to 60 in 5 seconds and i have a car that only does 0 to 60 in 8 seconds, and we both floor it, your acceleration will be greater than mine, but we’ll both be accelerating. furthermore, you can ease up on the gas and still be accelerating, it just won’t be as much.

so the question of whether it’s possible to accelerate through the golf ball–through impact–depends on this: how much force can be sustained (or possibly be ever increased) on the golf club by a master golfer? and how does this force compare with the impact forces of collision with the golf ball, when traveling at speeds between say 90 mph and 120 mph? i don’t know the answers to these questions.

william

62

thin white duke,
I believe lag’s intent on page four of this topic was not to degrade martial arts, and lag’s other postings referencing martial arts show respect for those arts as well as for the dedicated, thoughtful students and experts.
1teebox

63

It’s sometimes fascinating to me to watch the growth or death of a thread. What started with a simple depression into clay has morphed into ripping someone’s heart out, black belts, a thin white dude wanting a piece of Lag :laughing: , and everything in between.

Ya’ gotta love it…we’re like a bunch of old moonshiners sitting on the front stoop trying to decide if hound dogs really do rock all the time.

But it’s way cool :smiley: RR

64

thin white duke,

Our systems have similar influence. My understanding is Wado Ryu was heavily influenced by Funakoshi Gichin. He was a fellow student under Itosu. He started Shotokan while Toyama Kanken (My master’s teacher) founded Shudokan. I know the Wa in Wado Ryu means harmony so I believe we can achieve harmony in our approach to Karate and Lag’s approach to hitting a golf ball.

After reviewing Lag’s post I am not understanding the sensitivity to what he is saying. I believe he was simply trying provide a visual so people could connect with hitting through an object and hitting through a ball. I think you would agree, if you were going to strike me in the head you wouldn’t punch to my nose but instead to the back of my head. That is all Lag is saying.

I have been a student of Lag’s for 7 months. I have gotten to know him personally and we have talked a lot about the connection between Martial Arts and striking a golf ball. I know he has spend many hours interviewing some top Martial Artists. So I guess it is only fair to blame myself and our brethern in Martial Arts if you take issue with what he has stated. Lag is a stand-up guy and has nothing but respect for Martial Arts. He has even fashioned his swing around many of the principles exspoused in the ancient arts. He is the first to say his knowledge is limited to what he has learned from others like myself.

I hope this clears things up.

65

William

“deceleration is not the same thing as decreasing acceleration”

Great point, I have tought alot about this and I both understand and agree. I just trivialised
to keep it simple…or less wordy if you will.

Regards

CP

66

cp,

i had a feeling that you were just being brief. sorry to be so overly pedantic. i know that these concepts, while not difficult to understand, can be easily misunderstood. and i’ve often seen such misunderstands lead others to draw false conclusions.

william

67

Hanisch and CP,
I’ve got no business entering into a physics debate because my knowledge of the field is limited to say the least. I think the gist of what I’m getting at is that regardless of the supposed solidity of the theory, there’s always wiggle room, some place where it doesn’t hold up. I understand that mass at impact plays a key part, and in talking about what I was talking about, I’m really just giving credence to the ball. It’s of significant enough mass to impact the acceleration of the club. And in a lot of ways I see this as a big benefit in a well timed golfswing, since it acts as a flexor of the shaft. The slowing down of the clubhead by the ball at impact is in essence a major loader of the shaft, in the same way that a good divot allows you to pop the ball our there. This is one of the things I was interested in when discussing hockey with IOZ- the fact that the ball is heavier has a big impact in intentions and goals.
I’m a golfer and a thinker, not a scientist, so I apologize for any inaccuracies in my out loud thinking. Like I’ve said before many times, putting things out there has a way of clarifying things better than I could do by myself. I tend to work in concepts and ideas as I’ve got issues with ‘facts’, as a general rule.
My thinking on the golf swing isn’t rooted in science or pseudo science, but experience of playing the game. I’m not trying to debate physics, just looking for the best way to move the golf ball to where I want it…
As always, I enjoy and value the debate.
BOM

68

I gotta give this one a little RR… :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

69

I can’t get away from the feeling that I sold myself short in this post. What you guys are talking about is fairly rudimentary physics, which I understand completely and have talked about many times before. I guess what I was trying to say in my post is that if you guys want to get into an advanced sort of phd type physics discussion then I’m not sure that I could hang with you. My thinking is grounded in science and reality, not pseudo science. I do have a tendency to question stated norms and accepted facts, but this shouldn’t be confused with not understanding the basic realities of how the earth moves, and how the things on it move too. While I do think that science and reality change, I do have a very solid understanding and respect for how things operate as they are. I just wanted to get that off my chest…
BOM

70

Bom said:
With the pancake question you could also ask when your intention to flip it began- It could’ve been when you were lying in bed wondering what you were going to have for breakfast There are too many unknowns in all of that stuff to be certain, but it does seem clear that mental or emotional desires or urges are the things that make us move our bodies. Obviously with repetition we get better at the actions but it’s the learning of the how that starts the process I think. Whether it’s in observation or in words, it’s a mental processing that governs the learning as far as I can tell, and then we put it into practice physically. It may not be active or conscious, but anything audio or visual is processed by the brain as far as we know, and then interpreted and then done. This might change, but for know it appears that the brain is the hub of the processing. It seems fairly evident if you stand at a driving range for 20 minutes or so, that the general perception on how to move a golf ball is a bit off. Something ought to be done about it, I say!

This is something that has percolated in my mind also for a long time. And I do not have the “answer”…but some thoughts.

Driving…not golf balls, but cars, trucks, planes may serve as a good example here, and possibly point that some complex processes may be better models than others to examine intentions in striking a golf ball.

People who have not driven cars( especially stick shift), or drivers learning to master big rig tractor trailers, adults learning to back up with a boat or trailer, airplane pilots…all these are examples to me of ones who would fail if they were given verbal instructions and good mental images that produces perfect intentions in their minds. Ever show up at a busy narrow boat ramp and see a first time driver attempting to launch a boat?

Part A: Often we learn best after some classroom instruction, followed by physical lessons in a big empty parking lot( car park :smiley: ), where we are safe to learn and master the various things such as gear shift, braking, turning, instruments. Learning to back up with a trailer is a big reminder of how the learning process cannot be skipped. Pilots learn in the safety of simulators.

These “safe” environments allow the learner to practice over and over his new skills ,or movements, until they become second nature, or unconscious. Then, we can drive in heavy traffic, while mentally solving other complex problems in our heads while commuting to work …giving no thought to the actions that are suddenly needed to avoid a pedestrian, until after we have done so(hopefully). The safe environment of the simulator allows the learning pilot to spare his life, while he learns his new skills.

At some point however , Part B starts…learning to apply the new skills and aim them in a real environment. …the busy road for the driver, the air for the pilot.

For golfers…good mental images are necessary, and can probably help shortcut learning, especially if we are trained in other skills…like hockey . But like other processes, we probably need to learn some skills, and learn them well enough enough to have them second nature,…this part A can occur on the Range, or basement, or yard ( our “dirt”). Then , with these skills mastered and second nature , we can proceed to part B…learning to aim and play the game by applying these skills.

Golfers spend various relative mounts of time in Part A vs Part B. Really good golfers, who regress to some Part A work , will often do poorly for a bit until they incorporate their new skills with some Part B work. What I hear you saying is how can we modify Part A with proper image and intentions, so as to minimize the amount of Part A needed to get some good results in part B. And how can we maximize Part B with these thoughts, images, and intentions. I am thinking it can be short-cutted, but “time in the simulator” will still be needed for skill acquisition …and maintenance!

71

Phenomenal post Eagle…spot on as they say…or in rat terms: Nice Cheese!

I suppose a Part C could also exist which expands on Part A & B by way of testing the limits of applicability.

In the airplane example…after simulators, and then actual air time to firmly entrench both A & B, let’s see if a 747 can do an inverted loop dive under the Golden Gate Bridge…and then do a fly-by over Mare Island and tip the wings in a salute to ABS.

You’ll have to pilot the jumbo beast however since my height does not allow me to see over the stick and out the front windows. Should be easy for you…you’re and eagle. :laughing: RR

72

From the past, another key mental image…with a modern ABS improvement.

In “On Learning Golf”, Percy Boomer said a golfer would do well to see himself as driving a wedge under a door, as opposed to driving a stake into the ground. On this forum, this advice would fit with a low/shallow approach to the ball…likely on the 4:30 line. Bom222 has pointed out a striking a soccer ball, as opposed to a golf ball promotes the same thing…the low/shallow vs steep approach.

Boomer’s book is a great read…he was big on building up what he calls a bank of remembered feelings, that one can draw upon. He liked lots of repetition to create deep tracks in the mind and body where these feelings are stored, to strengthen these remembered feelings. We can all recall many of our good shots and small victories from the past. All this, it seems, would be related to intent…intent and image in the mind, then the use of the remembered feelings to execute and translate the intent into a golf shot.

Boomer’s advice must have been good, as he had several international champions as students.

To improve on the door and wedge image…one could add a Lag principle( cheese RR)…post impact pivot thrust. To borrow what I have seen on another thread, Lag advises imagining thrusting/accelerating the door, frame , and wall with one’s whole body after impact.

73

You’re paying too much attention, Eagle :wink: I think you’re onto something here, and it’s the essence of impact when all is said and done.
I agree that it’s a full body experience, and I get the sense that some of my thoughts are written off as those of ‘swinging’ but they’re not. This is another discussion, but I see the hitting/swinging debate in a similar way to the Democrat/Republican debate here in America. Neither party suits most people since there is so so much and so many people in between. I do understand the supposed differences, but I don’t buy the poles or polls.
I actually read Boomer’s book a good while ago, and don’t remember it in detail, but I do remember some pretty cool mental images in there, and I played some fun, free and reckless golf as a result of it. Though after a while I remember feeling a bit too handsy for one reason or another.
But the point you make about intent is really good, and is along the lines of some of the things I’ve been talking about and working on. What can we say about impact? For one, it’s the only thing that matters, but that’s not to say that it happens all by itself. But I do believe that the correct intent for it dictates the motion, and not the other way around. The purpose always drives the action because without it the action has no point other than itself. It’s like the difference I see between yoga and martial arts- they both have similar forms and structures, but their product is different. One is conceptual, while the other is practical. This again, is another deeper discussion with many layers, but In golf we have a specific purpose, and everything must serve that.
I’ve enjoyed your last few posts… good stuff!

74

In keeping with the thread…“A Key Image”…this from a guy who’s had a little success( golf)…what he says about “pictures” and their importance to his game. I guess he knows what he’s talking about. This speaks to the importance of images/pictures, and their importance to creating intent.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InVkZ1b5EUU[/youtube]

75

At 1:50, they show two different brick-breakings in slow-motion. I think it’s interesting to see how much the hand deforms in the second one.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAwS6dR9Hto[/youtube]

76

Wow! I really like the one where the hand needs to break multiple layers. The last one finally breaks, but only because of the continuing thrust and intention to accelerate.

What a great image to have! And this also reminds me of a picture of that BOM posted a while ago (the one in which Mr. Hogan is posing with those golf balls lined up…)

Thanks for sharing…

IoZ

77

Pavaveda… this is a great clip btw! It’s fascinating to see all the different types of impacts and how both sides act and react. Thanks for sharing- I’ve saved it to my favourites…
BOM